On Aug 22, 2:23=A0pm, eug...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Eugene Miya) wrote:
> In article <48aeaadb$0$28863$88260...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
>
> Jon <jonm...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >>>They are caching food and supplies. =A0Are they caching information,
>
> >> Yeah, they usually have a library, commonly US Army field manuals
> >> [...] basic first aid
>
> >But can they repair the damaged infrastructure, the communications
> >systems, refineries, etc...
>
> Can you?
>
> This is the big generalist vs. specialist morass that many people get
> into circular arguments. =A0Just like mention of Nazis on some Usenet
> threads, Heinlein tends to get quoted along the way:
>
> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
> =A0invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ****p, design a building, write
> =A0a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort
> =A0the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone,
> =A0solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program
> =A0a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
> =A0gallantly. =A0Specialization is for insects." =A0Robert Heinlein
>
> from one friend's cut and paste (is also a commercially produced
poster).
> It's poorly formatted for discussion except for printing and printers. =
=A0A
> better discussion format would be:
>
> "A human being should be able to change a diaper,
> plan an invasion,
> butcher a hog,
> conn a ****p,
> design a building,
> write a sonnet,
> balance accounts,
> build a wall,
> set a bone,
> comfort the dying,
> take orders,
> give orders,
> cooperate,
> act alone,
> solve equations,
> analyze a new problem,
> pitch manure,
> program a computer,
> cook a tasty meal,
> fight efficiently,
> die gallantly.
> Specialization is for insects."
> -Lazarus Long character, Time Enough For Love =A0by Robert A. Heinlein
>
> Take your pick.
>
> Mathematically one enumerates the cases and responds.
>
> Sure, I met my General Ed. requirements in college, but I also took a
> non-credit class in car repair. =A0I lucked out having a friend who
broug=
ht
> and still owns a Bride****t Milling machine which I can use and in turn
my
> introducing him to other "garage" people they bought milling machines,
> and lathes (I had metal shop, re****ts from schools these days say all
> that is gone). =A0But I think that Long and Heinlein might be wrong.
> Specialization might not be just for insects. =A0It might be a necessary
> consequence for the level of technology we have. =A0And the logical
> successors to that might be my various friends who are and want to
> experiment with electronic implants (like wearcam.org, the desireous
Borg=
,
> oh must not forget MyLifeBits) and cryonics (whole body and head
freezing=
).
> Why? Because they want to be better, live longer than the average
person.
>
> A lot is made of literacy. =A0Sure I read Is Google Making Us Stupid?
> No google isn't making us stupid. =A0We're making ourselves stupid.
> Many people care more about how certain words get pronounced; they glaze
> over Long's/Heinlein's list and say Sure! =A0Few solve equations or
cryto=
grams.
> The Atlantic article (and many literate) was "deep reading." =A0Then
crac=
k
> open a calculus book (CA is having debates about algebra). =A0Sorry
sonne=
ts
> don't cut it.
>
> Here are some other Long quotes I added to the DB that some one sent me:
>
> =A0"The Notebooks of Lazarus Long." =A0Other quotes include
> (paraphrased from memory):
>
> "In a duel, always get off the first shot. =A0This flusters your
opponent
> enough that you have time to make your second shot count."
>
> "When ambushed in the wild, don't shoot at all. =A0Silence is your ally.
> A dagger in the throat is worth a hundred rounds of ammo."
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 # This is what the gun nuts forget, but you also have to
=
be
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 # trained to use a knife. =A0The throat is a margin
place=
to
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 # puncture or slash a person, insert into a person's
kidn=
ey.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 # A pistol with a suppressor might also be useful.
>
> "A human being should be able to build a bridge, bake a souffle,
> take out an appendix, change a diaper, write a sonnet, and dig a ditch.
> Specialization is for insects."
>
> "I heard another ending to the grasshopper and ant fable. =A0The
grasshop=
per
> came back with a few of his buddies and drove out the smaller ants.
> The ants died that winter. =A0The grasshoppers lived well that winter on
> the ants' stores, but died the next winter just the same."
>
> Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human.
> At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe,
> and not to make messes in the house. -- Robert Heinlein
>
> The reality is that there is a lot of general knowledge out there.
> Taking time to read during crisis might not be the way to handle a
crisis=
..
> You can't waste time. =A0It's one of those things you have to conserve.
>
> When I think of digging a ditch, my friend with the Bridge****t goes out
> and buys an $18K minitractor on his Visa.
>
> Big topic. =A0One can go on and on.
>
> >>>Are they prepared to deal with loss of basic sup****t infrastruture?
>
> >> I think your simplest answer to your first question is like a high
bar
> >> (threshold) that they hope they can do.
>
> >Do they go back to the coal age, steam age? =A0Limited trade?
>
> I'm playing fireman, maybe, on a steam boat in a month.
> Do you have a good source for hard coal? =A0Another friend who owns a
> Stanley appeared with Jessie James on one of his shows.
> Does one of them, or both, and others, have photovoltaic arrays and aux.
> power sources? =A0Sure. =A0One also owns an AR-15 and a left handed
targe=
t
> rifle. =A0Some of them are starting out to Burning Man today.
>
> >> 2001 was just air. =A0It was more problematic for those on the ground
> >> (short term). =A0We all handled it in different ways.
>
> >Small disruption of one mode of trans****tation.
>
> Yeah, but recall that 2003 was trains and buses at about the same time.
> They, the "West's" opponents read. =A0They get advanced degrees like MDs
> and JDs. =A0You have to make your social changes in the presence and not
=
in
> secret.
>
> >> I'm personally a little clueless about Katrina.
> >> =A0New Orleans is a city of which I have really no
> >> interest. =A0It shouldn't be there.
>
> >N.O. isn't the only city in the wrong place environmentally.
>
> More so than many. =A0Urban planning is a new concept. =A0And I have now
> visited so call planned communities. =A0They have their problems, too.
>
> >> Ask the Dutch.
>
> >We cycled through many miles within polders.
>
> What's a polder?
> (w/o looking it up).
> Zees and dikes I know and would have to deduce that a polder is the
> recovered land. =A0But that's possibly a limited view. =A0I'm visiting
No=
rway
> (S. won an award remember? =A0;^) and Iceland. =A0Holland is flat.
>
> >> They have 1 side of water to deal with, =A0New Orleans
> >> has 3 sides. =A0It should be abandoned as a city.
>
> >Think North Sea, 1953. =A0Natural forces. =A0Also failure of
> >planning and infrastructure played a role. =A01800+ people
> >killed. =A0Large areas inundated. =A0Dutch didn't abandon.
>
> 1953: Everest ascended. =A0Nanga Parbat ascended by Hermann Buhl.
> The Dutch are tough people. =A0Think 21st centory. =A0What are they
think=
ing
> about climate change? =A0Do you think they have many sea level rise
criti=
cs?
> The Dutch don't have much choice. =A0What do you think Asia is thinking?
> 1953: Korea comes to a truce. =A0Eisenhower is sworn in.
>
>
>
> >>>> A-ark, B-ark, or C-ark. =A0You didn't want to be on any of
> >>>> THOSE arks.
>
> >>>Well, the B-ark people survived to populate another planet. The
> >>>A/C-ark designees never launched, never planned to,-- it was just
> >>>a sham to get rid of the "non-contributors". =A0Instead the A's and
C'=
s
> >>>were wiped out by a disease trivially preventable by the B-arker's
> >>>they banished.
>
> >> No, not quite.
> >> The B-ark people survived a short time on the proto-Earth.
> >> That was the basis for So Long and Thanks for All the Fish.
> >> Arthur and Ford and the others deduced that the B-arkers, barkers,
> >> weren't the precursors to Earth's modern humans.
>
> >In which version? =A0
>
> So Long and Thanks for All the Fish. Vol. 4 of his Trilogy.
>
> >The first books were radio series first.
> >And which earth?
>
> A fictional version of our Earth.
>
> >Adams uses the concept of a "plural zone".
> >And how much happened only within the virtual universe
> >constructued to ensnare Zaphod?
>
> >I'm rereading the books now. =A0In the original radio series
> >Ford proposes that the Golgafrinchans are human ancestors.
>
> I was in Santa Barbara in May and went past Adams favorite restaurant
> there. =A0Still there.
>
> >> But this is fiction.
>
> >Entertaining, creative, parts of it, thought provoking...
>
> You have to know its limits.
>
> --
Still in fiction, but fiction which is at least as instructive as
Lazarus long - Try "Lucifer's Hammer" by Jerry Pournelle. Survivalist
writing with a different twist. Under Pournlle's scenario, much of
Lazarus Long's hedonism becomes moot if not detrimental.
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