In message <48c85f8e$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>, Eugene Miya <eugene@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
writes
>In article <OrjWd+DTAoxIFwQJ@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
>Chris Townsend <Chris@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>There are European brown bears in places too. Not many though.
>
>
>I'm not certain of the extent of brown bears in Europe other than as far
>North in Norway and Russia, French Alps (possibly the Pyrenees), etc.
They venture into Sweden and Finland too and I think they are found in
Eastern Europe in countries like Poland.
>
>>I've seen a wolverine in Norway - and tracks a few times.
>
>Lucky you! 8^) I have a hat, used ruffs, zoos, etc.
I've never seen one in a zoo!
>
>>Plus moose (called elg in Norway).
>
>Big deal in the US. VP candidate shoots them. Dresses them, eats them.
>Slurp.
So we hear. Our politicians are very urban.
>
>>The Sami have been there thousands of years. They probably had a similar
>>effect to Native Americans on Canada and Alaska.
>
>I have a Swedish friend, and we were going over Scandinavian history
>last evening driving up to the City: "So why did your people repress the
>Norwegians? ..." It was fun putting them on the hot seat. I am
>uncertain yet of the comparison. I have to think about it more. I've
>heard it before.
They both repressed the Sami, who were a nomadic people with no concept
of land owner****p.
>
>
>>
>>I led a ski tour on Spitsbergen, the main island of Svalbard, many years
>>ago. We carried a rifle. No polar bears - it was an inland trip, not
>>coastal. Spitsbergen may be like the arctic coast of the Yukon. Northern
>>Norway is very similar to the Yukon - coniferous forest, boggy tundra,
>>rolling hills.
>
>
>Was the rifle your responsibility or did you have a licensed guide with
it?
It was my responsibility. However one of the group was experienced with
firearms and a gun club member so he took charge of it. He had been on
previous trips with me so I knew him pretty well.
>
>>>Oh yes, and according to Wikipedia, Norway asserts Antarctic claims and
>>>Queen Maudland is consider Norwegian territory. It's B-c.
>>
>>That's interesting.
>
>The United States choses not to recognize the claims of other countries
>and choses not to assert its own claims for international reasons.
Which are?
Svalbard was a key place during the Cold War of course. The Soviets
maintained a coal mine on Spitsbergen so they could have a presence
there.
>>>The US has a fair number of the latter which have no official standing.
>>>Some have berms to close those areas and let remediation take place.
>>>The problem now is changing fire prevention issues. That those might
be
>>>more rural (a precursor to cultivation like drainage).
>>
>>Here 4WD tracks are built by private estates for stalking (deer
>>hunting). They have no official standing. There's rarely any fire
>>prevention problems. It's too wet.
>
>No burning peat bogs?
It would take a very long drought! Peat is cut for burning in homes. It
has to be stacked and dried for many weeks. I like the smell of burning
peat.
>>>>The Flow
>>>>Country of Caithness and Sutherland in Northern Scotland is of
>>>I've never heard the word flowcountry used before.
>>
>>It's specific to the area and usually capitalised.
>
>OK. I can believe you. We make all kinds of new words.
I think it's been called the Flow Country for a long time.
>
>>>extraction industries
>>
>>Private deer stalking estates are traditional opposition here. They
>>don't want regenerating forests or predators. Traditional extraction
>>industries aren't a problem in the Highlands but energy extraction in
>>the form of wind farms, hydro schemes and associated power lines is.
>
>No cover?
>Use herbicides, kill it off off and give the deer nothing to hide behind.
The deer have nothing to hide behind here. Scottish red deer are smaller
than European ones because they live on open hillsides while the latter
live in forests. Better and more food in the trees.
>>>>Many trees were cut down in Scottish forests in the 20th century world
>...
>>>>much since the Middle Ages. The last major change seems to have been
in
>>>>Roman times.
>>>Set by roads?
>>
>>In part. To march armies around and crush the Celts. Also the spread of
>>agriculture, especially in southern England.
>
>Oh those Romans.
What did they do for us?
Not as much as people think, according to Terry Jones' The Barbarians.
>
>>>>>Parks are more spectacle. They have greater entertainment value.
...
>>>>Nothing is safe in the long term.
>>>Economics. So Preservation might be doomed.
>>
>>Something always survives. So far. The northern Europe areas we are
>>trying to conserve are all less than 11,000 years old - post the last
>>Ice Age. Geologically they barely exist.
>
>So far. Ice sheets are mostly gone.
You'll see ice caps in Norway. Hardangerjokulen. Jostedalsbreen.
>
>>>>Hunting is very different in much of Europe to the USA and Canada. In
>>>Are we going to have to enumerate the various forms of regulation which
>>>is why some of our more conservative republicans and our libertarians
>>>declare the USA to be a Nanny State?...
>>>If you want to make a deal that hunting is elitist, go ahead.
>>
>>It's not regulation that makes hunting elitist, it's private land
>>owner****p.No hunting without permission. No permission without a large
>>fee, booked dates and hunting guides.
>
>I think you have different opinions.
Just opinions?
>
>>>>>>>try to claim you have wild lands and not merely unused rural
pasture
>>>>>>When does unused rural pasture become wild again?
>>>>Almost immediately I would say. There are an increasing number of
areas
>>>>in the Scottish Highlands where grazing pressures have been reduced
and
>>>>the trees are regenerating without planting or fencing. I think of
these
>>>>as wild.
>>>I'm trying to think if I could agree with that.
>>>If it was originally your bog, and you drained it to get pasture,
>>>did you reflood it? You might get birds back. Older large aniamls,
>>>likely not.
>>
>>Some bogs were drained for pasture, though few in the Highlands. When
>>trees were cut down the land was either just left or replanted with
>>non-native species that were felled in turn after 30-40 years. Smaller
>>mammals are returning with the natural forest - pine martin, red
>>squirrel, roe deer.
>
>I would argue that since drainage, the bog started to get civil.
>Wildness was reduced.
I agree. In places - mostly down south in the lowlands - bogs are being
flooded again to try and restore the wildness.
>>
>>I think when an area is "rewilded" to use the current in word it becomes
>>a new type of wild area. The past cannot be recreated. In Britain large
>>mammals arrived when the land was connected to mainland Europe. There's
>>no way for them to get here now.
>
>I have to think about rewild.
An interesting word. I have doubts about it.
>
>
>>>The Right argues that more of it should go into private hands.
>>>Tompkins is doing that in Chile, South America.
>>As are the National Trusts, John Muir Trusts, Royal Society for the
>>Protection of Birds and other bodies - all private.
>
>Can be nationalized?
Very unlikely. The Trusts have a great advantage in being independent of
government. The trust deeds usually mean that properties can't be sold
or exploited - they are to be conserved "in perpetuity".
>
>>>>>well as offensive). So wild here mostly means roadless.
>>>>I think wild here often means roadless too, but the roadless area can
be
>>>>quite small. Roads may be visible and a place still called wild.
>>>I think here, we've decided to do minimum sizes for wilderness areas. A
>>>5x4 mile wilderness area might be the minimum for a wilderness.
>>
>>We have a few areas that would fit into that.
>
>Ye, but they also sit in the middle of road lacking forest area. 5x4
>surrounded by roads is another. A lot of road kill..
A lot of road kill indeed. Mainly rabbits and pheasants here with a few
squirrels. Collisions with deer are common.
>
>
>>>>By Land Trust do you mean the National Trust? There are two - one for
>>>>England and Wales and one for Scotland. The National Trust for
Scotland
>>>>does own much wild land - as well as castles, gardens and stately
homes.
>>>You have Trusts. We have Departments and Services.
>>
>>But the Trusts are private.
>
>Advantages and disadvantages.
Mainly the former.
>
>>>>I'm back from the Mountaineering Council of Scotland AGM & Gathering
>>>>weekend. Conservation and wild land is a key topic for us.
>>>"Wait'll you see the new clipboards..." 322 lines. Edit Chris.
>>
>>I am editing. It's still longer!
>
>More Chris. More.
>
>365 lines. Cut Chris, cut.
Snip, snip, snip.
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