Panel 2 -- Past topics
TABLE OF CONTENTS of this chain:
2/ Previous topics
3/ Beginner's (climbing) post
4/
5/ Access
6/
7/ References
8/
9/
10/
11/
12/ Ratings and grades
13/ Bolting
14/ In memoriam
15/
16/
17/
18/ Climbing GIFs
19/
20/ Weather
21/ Climbing glossary
22/ Song
23/
24/
25/
26/ Climbing Humor
27/ Legal issues
28/ Alternative ways to read rec.climbing
1/ DISCLAIMER
"Climbing is not a spectator s****t." -- Mark Wellman
Past topics
A summary of topics discussed in this news group since inception.
Most have opinions pro and con, we do not attempt to summarize these here.
Topics: (many topics discussed in other groups instead e.g., r.b.)
Equipment, munge, gear, junk, rangoon, stuff
(largely seekable in books or vendor literature, at stores, mail order)
Smelly shoes
Climbing
Getting started Beginners
Protection ethics
style chalk
bolting Hang dogging, YoYo-ing,
Beta
Testing, physics, etc. Ratings, names of climbs,
'Lycra and wool' Expeditions
Ice climbing knots
Rapping Caving
Internationalism competitition
Literature Ratings, Grades, Cl*****
Guns and climbing:
It's gotta be that gun Stallone had in Cliffhanger
red pointing, pink pointing, etc. ... No, no, no, it's a flame thrower.
Ethics vs. morals
You are moral if you do what someone else thinks is right.
You are ethical if you do what you think is right.
--Marilyn vos Savant
S****t climbing
climbing walls
Locations
Where?
Limited trip re****ts
Conditions
Geology
Routes and route finding
Rescue
Equipment of
Stories, epics, accidents
Usenet: Not for the weak at heart.
For instance the monthly bolting/risk argument.
Outside:
At the heart of the debate lurked a single issue: the role of
risk -- the im****tance of adventure, if you will -- in rock climbing.
On the one side of the dispute were the traditionalists, who believed that
the place for a climber was on long, beautiful, exposed routes that put
a premium on nerve and judgment. On the other side stood s****t climbers,
who made liberal use of power drills, preplaced bolts, chiseled finger
holds,
and hangdogging -- the practice of rehearsing extreme moves while
suspended
from a tight rope fixed from above -- to engineer very short, very safe
routes of enormous gymnastic difficulty up blank faces that would
otherwise be
impossible to climb.
--Jon Krakauer
Greg's BOLTING FAQ:
Rules
---------------------
1) No retro-bolting. You don't like the route the way it
is, go home and ask Santa for some balls for Christmas.
"...it is true that a more disgusting sight cannot be seen than
an 'ironed out' route that can be done without steel."
-- J.L.Dudra, CAJ 1953
For another instance:
Why is every one in this news group named "Bruce?"
Statistics. Chance.
Many Monty Python fans in this group. Climbing has a very English basis.
Two Monty-Python skits on climbing.
For another instance:
Why don't the cavers have a news group?
The formation of a usenet group on caving has long been a subject
of controversy. Most cavers that live in the US and Australia prefer that
caving remain "low profile", while cavers in Europe prefer a "high
profile"
approach. Much of this has to do with the type of caves and caving that
occur in these regions, and the differences in conservation ethics.
There are different types of resource management for different types of
cave systems. Due to the often extensive destruction of cave resources
that
seems to occur in the US after a cave location has been made public, it
was
decided by the international caving community to keep electronic caving
within a moderated mailing list (see below). This ensured that caves
suffer minimal destruction, while still allowing caving information to be
distributed on a world wide basis. This also made certain that
information
could reach the maximum number of individuals (e-mail is MUCH more
extensive
and reliable than usenet access).
Alt.caving was formed in spite of opposition from the caving community.
It was not formed by anyone associated with caves OR caving. The person
that formed this group was actually interested in hollow-earth phenomenon,
tombs, etc. Because the person forming this group also botched the
formation process, it it NOT carried by many systems. This means that
distribution is EXTREMELY limited and most people are unable to see or
respond to this newsgroup.
So what does all of the above mean?
1) Most of the experienced cavers CAN'T see or respond to the questions on
alt.caving. Their news feeds don't carry it. It is unlikely that you
will receive responses to your posts.
2) Because it was formed IN SPITE OF the cavers opposition, and because
the group is unmoderated, the VERY few cavers that can see alt.caving
are unwilling to give information out. They expect the person that
is truly interested in caving to join the cavers mailing list, like
everyone else. Again, because the mailing list is carried via e-mail,
the maximum number of people can get it, and respond to it. Also
remember, the cavers are only trying to protect the caves. Once a cave
is destroyed, it is PERMANENT.
3) Because it lacks the sup****t of the caving community, the information
posted on alt.caving is suspicious, at the very best. The majority of
people posting to the group are individuals with limited experience.
(The more experienced cavers know about the mailing list and post
there).
Because most of the people posting to alt.caving ARE of limited
experience, the information has a higher probability of being wrong,
or only good for a certain type of cave.
4) The cavers are NOT trying to keep you from caving. Most cavers realize
that it is impossible to learn caving from an electronic forum. There
will be too many holes in the information provided. NOTHING can equal
training. If the cavers are reluctant to give out information, it is
because they are trying to ensure that you seek out and receive
training
from an instructor that knows what they are doing. Both
rec.backcountry
and rec.climbing are monitored by cavers. They will provide you with
resources for training IF you ask for it. YOU CAN GET KILLED WHILE
CAVING,
especially if you don't know what you are doing!
Of course, all individuals that are truly interested in caving are invited
to join the cavers mailing list. See below for details.
- Cindy Heazlit, NSS 22980F
Any comments on the above should be directed to:
cheazlit@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
put put alt.caving in the subject line.
From rec.backcountry Panel 26,
Caving:
Send all submissions to cavers@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
all subscribe/unsubscribe requests to jolsen@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
the website at http://www.caversdigest.com/
In the UK:
uk.rec.caving
And another:
The Edwin Moses belay style. Frequently discussed before.
Not found in PNW instruction manuals. Not for beginners. Perhaps
occasionally useful, other times not. Difficult to practice or test.
And another:
From the 1992 Black Diamond catalog, p. 48:
"There is no hard and fast way to determine your rope's life
expectancy. A rule of thumb: climbers who use their ropes
'occasionally' (holidays): 2 to 4 years. average use(weekends and
holidays): 2 years. intensive daily use (guides, professional
climbers: 3 months to 1 year. These are only guidelines and should
not be considered definitive."
....as I hammered in the last bolt and staggered over the rim,
it was not at all clear to me who was the conqueror and who was the
conquered.
I do recall that El Cap seemed to be in much better condition that I was.
--Warren Harding, 1958
Personalities:
In a few short years the standards and techniques of Yosemite climbing
had taken a dramatic leap forward. Yet for the principals involved,
climbing was by no means the whole story, nor even the most im****tant
party.
Perhaps the key element was that through climbing and living in Yosemite
they found a sense of community and purpose they did not feel in the
outside world.
During the early years of the s****t, climbers subscribed to society's
norms.
They were a group of hardy outdoorsmen much like sailors or skiers.
The 1950s marked the appearance of a new breed: the working class climber,
and the four-months-ayear climbing bum. Instead of looking toward
a college degree and a career, this new breed lived from year to year.
They had a clear sense that they were "different."
The Yosemite climbers created a gulf between themselves and
the despised "'tourists. " It was easy to look down upon them and
the suburban impedimenta that they brought into the valley,
to compare their seemingly vacuous life to the climbers' spartan,
dedicated existence.
At high school and in society at large the key factor was "fitting in."
At school organized s****ts were the thing, together with the car syndrome,
and all that it stood for: drive-in movies, soda fountains, and
"cruisin' Main."' Almost without exception the Yosemite climbers rejected
this
version of life, and just as surely it rejected them.
At a time when it was virtuafly unthinkable, many of them dropped out
of school. Pratt"s case was typical. A physics major at Berkeley,
he detested the mandatory ROTC with its uniforms and parades.
When he changed out of his uniform one aftemoon, all the frustrations
of school life came to a head. To hell with it, he thought,
I'm off to Tahquitz. He never looked back.
Once they dropped out, they felt all manner of pressures.
Their parents were humiliated and hated the rejection of their own values,
the grubby Yosemite existence, and the casual laboring jobs.
Nor were the climbers appreciated in the valley.
They were a pest to the Curry Company, the park concessionaire -
They were dirty, and they lounged around the coffee shop.
They gave the park an unsavory air. The outside pressures on
the climbers created a feefing of us against them and helped to
build the cohesiveness of the group.
Situated directly across from the north face of Sentinel Rock is Camp 4,
a dusty area of boulders, trees, and campground tables.
By mid-April of each year a dozen or so of the faithful had set up camp
for
part or all of the six-month climbing season.
Camp 4 was their spiritual home, their bastion against the outside world.
There they met others who had been through their own crises,
others who understood. There was a ritual im****tance to life in this camp,
this valley. A phrase that summed up their feeling was
"living at one with the dirt." And from the Christian idea of
deliverance through toil, they spoke of purification through suffering
on the granite walls.
By day Camp 4 was almost deserted, but in the evening small groups
gathered around the kerosene-lighted tables to compare notes,
discuss climbs, and put the world to rights.
If cir***stances demanded, an impromptu party materialized.
One evening Mike Borghoff led a group in a brazen chorus.
Around midnight an irate tourist visibly shaking with rage
demanded they stop. Harding staggered to his feet and danced around
the fire wine bottle in hand in a gesture of defiance.
The tourist threatened to call the rangers and fled the scene.
The party resumed with gusto. Within minutes a green truck with
a fla****ng red light pulled into Camp 4.
A ranger hopped out and strode purposefully toward the group.
Close behind came the gleeful tourist.
In reply to the ranger's stern complaint, Harding suggested that
he could explain everything, but he stumbled and crawled toward the
ranger.
Then events took an unexpected turn. The ranger's face suddenly broke into
a smile, and he exclaimed, "Why, you're Warren Harding, I've never met
you."
He warmly shook the hand of the rapidly sobering Harding, who gravely
replied,
"Yes we were meaning to call you. We were having a quiet evening when
a man in khaki pants started bothering us." The tourist vanished,
and the party continued into the small hours.
--Chris Jones, Climbing in North America, UC Press, Berkeley, 1976
In 1960 one of the first fatal accidents occurred in the valley.
A teenage climber fell into the Arrow Chimney while rappelling into the
notch at the base of the Lost Arrow Spire. Harding volunteered to
retrieve the body, but the Park Service considered the risk unjustified.
In deference to the relatives they closed the route for one year.
The closing was inconvenient for Chouinard and Roper who had looked
forward
to trying the first one-day ascent of the chimney. It was a consolation
brag that whoever went up first would get the victim's climbing gear.
After the prescribed one-year moratorium, the pair started up
the Lost Arrow Chimney. They were uneasy over what lay ahead. Roper was
particularly concerned about Chouinard's reaction because of his Catholic
background. After a few pitches Chouinard yelled down "remains" and
tossed off a spherical object. All appeared to be well. It was Roper's
turn to lead on the pitch they knew would take them past the body.
Apprehensive and tight lipped, he swung onto a ledge covered in human
remains. He was terrified by the sight and hurried on without stopping.
Just then Chouinard yelled up, "What's it like?" It was a tense moment.
Roper blurted out, "His goddam parka doesn't fit me."
--Chris Jones, Climbing in North America, UC Press, Berkeley, 1976
Roper offers a less exciting version in "Camp 4":
I was in the lead when I came upon the dessicated remains. To break
the tension, I yelled down to Chouinard, "Goddamn it! His parka
doesn't fit me!"
"it is better to retreat off a good climb than to succeed on
an indifferent one."
--Chris Jones, AAJ, 1971
Easy climbs in Yosemite:
Ha.
The climbing as a whole is not very esthetic or enjoyable;
it is merely difficult.
--Yvon Chouinard, 1963
As we unloaded packs at the parking lot, two young ladies approached us to
ask if we were THE Yosemite climbers... They asked if it were true that
Yosemite climbers chafe their hands on the granite to enable them to
friction up vertical walls. We assured them that the preposterous myth
was true.
--Chuck Pratt, 1965
We do not deceive ourselves that we are engaged in an activity
that is anything but debilitating, dangerous, euphoric, kinesthetic,
expensive, frivolously essential, economically useless and totally without
redeeming social significance. One should not probe for deeper meetings.
--Allen Steck, 1967
The future of Yosemite climbing lies not in Yosemite, but in using
the new techniques in the great granite ranges of the world.
--Yvon Chouinard, 1963
On the topic of repetitive stress injuries:
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/typing-injury-faq/top.html
or, check out sci.med.occupational, or comp.human-factors, or even
news.answers
Other Web pages:
http://www.dek.chalmers.se/Climbing/index.html/
http://www.cs.cmu.edu:8001/afs/cs/user/cline/www/AccessFund
http://www.eeb.ele.tue.nl/climbing/index.html
From: opland@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Greg Opland)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Mt. McKinley
Books on Routes and Guide Services:
"High Alaska," by Jonthan Waterman (for routes)
"Surviving Denali," by Jonathan Waterman (talks about accidents on Denali
but
includes list of guide services and other invaluable info.)
MT. MCKINLEY CLIMBER'S HANDBOOK
Glenn Randall
Chockstone, 1992 (second edition)
117pp
ISBN: 0-934641-55-2
Mostly provides information for what to bring and do on a Denali
expedition, all the way from glacier travel to food to the summit.
Chapter dealing with the West Buttress. Complete with classic
Bradford Washburn photos (second edition). Also lists guide services
and where to send for information.
Here's a pair that I've been thinking about lately. Some classic R.R.
Writing this last chapter has been difficult and painful. It involves
do's and don'ts, obligations and responsibilities. Most climbers are
individuals who love freedom--they climb because it makes them feel
free. We may expect then, that having others suggest how they ought to
climb will rub wrong. There used to be so few climbers that it didn't
matter where one drove a piton, there wasn't a worry about demoli****ng
the rock. Now things are different. There are so many of us, and
there will be more. A simple equation exists between freedom and
numbers: the more people the less freedom. If we are to retain the
beauties of the s****t, the fine edge, the challenge, we must consider
our style of climbing; and if we are not to mutilate and destroy the
routes, we must eliminate the heavy handed use of pitons and bolts.
-- Royal Robbins, Basic Rockcraft, 1977, p.66.
.....
Robbins: I had the unique experience the next day: placing sixteen
bolts in a row. It was just blank and there was no way around. But it
was a route worth bolting for, and after a time I began to take an
almost perverse joy in it, or at least in doing a good job. [...]
-- Royal Robbins, Tis-sa-ack, Ascent, 1970.
--
----
http://debra.dgbt.doc.ca/waddington
al@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ae677@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Don't let the activity snobs put you off. Couch potatoes mock
> bumbly ramblers who mock hikers who mock scramblers who mock rock
> climbers who mock ice climbers who mock mountaineers who mock high
> altitude mountaineers who mock cavers; and for each dogma peddler in
> the chain who says "I do X but Y is insanely dangerous" there is the
> corresponding idiot who asserts that doing Y makes you a better human
> being than those who merely do X. What really pisses all of them off
> is if you refuse to play the game.
Struan Gray.
Chalk and rosin:
John Sherman, "Stone Crusade:"
Many climbers are eager to emulate the highly successful French
climbers, and rightly so. They can teach us much about training,
injury prevention, technique, and fa****on. Nevertheless, we should
learn not just from their successes but from their mistakes as well:
The use of rosin being their foremost blunder. The use of rosin (pof)
is unacceptable anywhere in the United States. NO POF. POF VERBOTEN.
It forms a slick buildup on holds and will not wash off. With
continued use it permanently alters the rock, forming a glassy surface
impossible to grip without more rosin. Rosin is commonly carried in
tied-up dishtowels that resemble miniature halloween ghosts. The pof
rag is whacked against holds and rubbed on boots. If you see climbers
using rosin, kindly ask them no to. If they persist in using it, take
their pof rag away from them and tar and feather their sorry *****.
--
..
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