On Dec 3, 4:01=A0am, MM4...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> On Dec 3, 12:33=A0am, Dikfur <wats_a_dik...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:21:19 -0800 (PST), Pocket Protector Man
>
> > <jacks...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > >Given the cir***stances, if Barack Obama respected this nation, he
> > >would prove it by the simplest and easiest of gestures - unless, of
> > >course, all this talk about change and hope was just a bunch of bull,
> > >and he's just "another politician." =A0Here's the outline:
>
> > >1. =A0Under Hawaiian law, it is possible (both legally and illegally)
> > >for a person to have been born out of state, yet have a birth
> > >certificate on file in the Department of Health.
>
> > > =A0 =A0A. From Hawaii's official Department of Health, Vital Records
> > >webpage: "Amended certificates of birth may be prepared and filed
with
> > >the Department of Health, as provided by law, for 1) a person born in
> > >Hawaii who already has a birth certificate filed with the Department
> > >of Health or 2) a person born in a foreign country" (applies to
> > >adopted children).
>
> > > =A0 =A0B. A parent may register an in-state birth in lieu of
> > >certification by a hospital of birth under HRS 338-5.
>
> > > =A0 =A0C. Hawaiian law expressly provides for registration of
out-of-
> > >state births under HRS 338-17.8. =A0A foreign birth presumably would
> > >have been recorded by the American consular of the country of birth,
> > >and presumably that would be reflected on the Hawaiian birth
> > >certificate.
>
> > > =A0 =A0D. Hawaiian law, however, expressly acknowledges that its
syst=
em
> > >is subject to error. =A0See, for example, HRS 338-17.
>
> > > =A0 =A0E. Hawaiian law expressly provides for verification in lieu
of
> > >certified copy of a birth certificate under HRS 338-14.3.
>
> > > =A0 =A0F. Even the Hawaii Department of Home Lands does not accept a
> > >certified copy of a birth certificate as conclusive evidence for its
> > >homestead program. =A0From its web site: =A0"In order to process your
> > >application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the
> > >original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green.
> > >This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification
of
> > >Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original
> > >Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the
> > >computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by
> > >DHHL."
>
> > >2. =A0Contrary to what you may have read, no do***ent made available
t=
o
> > >the public, nor any statement by Hawaiian officials, evidences
> > >conclusively that Obama was born in Hawaii.
>
> > > =A0 =A0A. Associated Press re****ted about a statement of Hawaii
Healt=
h
> > >Department Director Dr. Fukino, "State declares Obama birth
> > >certificate genuine."
>
> > > =A0 =A0B. That October 31, 2008 statement says that Dr. Fukino
"ha[s]
> > >personally seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of
> > >Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in
> > >accordance with state policies and procedures." =A0That statement
does
> > >not, however, verify that Obama was born in Hawaii, and as explained
> > >above, under Hawaiian policies and procedures it is quite possible
> > >that Hawaii may have a birth record of a person not born in Hawaii.
> > >Unlikely, but possible.
>
> > > =A0 =A0C. =A0The do***ent that the Obama campaign released to the
pub=
lic is
> > >a certified copy of Obama's birth record, which is not the best
> > >evidence since, even under Hawaiian law, the original vault copy is
> > >the better evidence. =A0Presumably, the vault record would show
whethe=
r
> > >his birth was registered by a hospital in Hawaii.
>
> > > =A0 =A0D. Without accusing anyone of any wrongdoing, we nevertheless
=
know
> > >that some people have gone to great lengths, even in violation of
> > >laws, rules and procedures, to confer the many benefits of United
> > >States citizen****p on themselves and their children. =A0Given the
> > >structure of the Hawaiian law, the fact that a parent may register a
> > >birth, and the limited but inherent potential for human error within
> > >the system, it is possible that a parent of a child born out-of-state
> > >could have registered that birth to confer the benefits of U.S.
> > >citizen****p, or simply to avoid bureaucratic hassles at that time or
> > >later in the child's life.
>
> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A01. We don't know whether the standards of
registration=
by the
> > >Department of Health were more or less stringent in 1961 (the year of
> > >Obama's birth) than they are today. =A0However, especially with
> > >post-9/11 scrutiny, we do know that there have been instances of
> > >fraudulent registrations of foreign births as American births.
>
> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A02. From a 2004 Department of Justice news release
abou=
t
> > >multiple New Jersey vital statistics employees engaged in schemes to
> > >issue birth certificates to foreign-born individuals: =A0"An
individua=
l
> > >who paid Anderson and her co-conspirators for the service of creating
> > >the false birth records could then go to Office of Vital Statistics
to
> > >receive a birth certificate . . . As part of the investigation,
> > >federal agents executed a search warrant of the HCOVS on Feb. 18,
> > >2004, which resulted in the seizure of hundreds of suspect
> > >Certificates of Live Birth which falsely indicated that the named
> > >individuals were born in Jersey City, when in fact, they were born
> > >outside the United States and were in the United States
> > >illegally . . . Bhutta purchased from Goswamy false birth
certificates
> > >for himself and his three foreign-born children."
>
> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A03. =A0Even before 9/11, government officials
acknowled=
ged the
> > >"ease" of obtaining birth certificates fraudulently. =A0From 1999
> > >testimony by one Social Security Administration official:
> > >"Furthermore, the identity data contained in Social Security records
> > >are only as reliable as the evidence on which the data are based. The
> > >do***ents that a card applicant must present to establish age,
> > >identity, and citizen****p, usually a birth certificate and
immigration
> > >do***ents-are relatively easy to alter, counterfeit, or obtain
> > >fraudulently."
>
> > >3. =A0It has been re****ted that the Kenyan government has sealed
Obama=
's
> > >records. =A0If he were born in Kenya, as has been rumored even
recentl=
y,
> > >the Kenyan government would certainly have many incentives to keep
> > >that undisclosed. =A0Objectively, of course, those records may prove
> > >nothing. =A0Obama's refusal to release records at many levels here in
> > >the United States, though, merely fuels speculation.
>
> > >4. =A0Obama has refused to disclose the vault copy of his Hawaiian
bir=
th
> > >certificate. =A0This raises the question whether he himself has
> > >established that he is eligible to be President. =A0To date, no state
=
or
> > >federal election official, nor any government authority, has verified
> > >that he ever established conclusively that he meets the eligibility
> > >standard under the Constitution. =A0If the burden of proof were on
him=
,
> > >perhaps as it should be for the highest office of any individual in
> > >America, the more-than-dozen lawsuits challenging his eligibility
> > >would be unnecessary.
>
> > > =A0 =A0A. Had he disclosed his vault copy in the Berg v. Obama
lawsui=
t
> > >(which was the first lawsuit filed on the question of his eligibility
> > >to be President), and it was established he was born in Hawaii, that
> > >would have constituted res judicata, and acted to stop other similar
> > >lawsuits being filed. =A0Without res judicata (meaning, the matter is
> > >adjudged and settled conclusively) he or government officials will
> > >need to defend other lawsuits, and valuable court resources will be
> > >expended. =A0Strategically from a legal standpoint, therefore, his
> > >refusal to disclose doesn't make sense. =A0Weighing factors such as
> > >costs, resources and complexity of disclosing versus not disclosing,
> > >he must have reason of considerable downside in disclosing, or upside
> > >in not disclosing. =A0There may be other reasons, but one could
> > >speculate that he hasn't disclosed because:
>
> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A01. He was not born in Hawaii, and may not be eligible
=
to be
> > >President;
>
> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A02. He was born in Hawaii, but facts that may be
derive=
d from
> > >his vault copy birth certificate are inconsistent with the life story
> > >he has told (and sold);
>
> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A03. He was born in Hawaii, and his refusal to provide
t=
he best
> > >evidence that he is a natural born citizen is a means by which to
draw
> > >criticism of him in order to make him appear to be a "victim."
=A0This
> > >would energize his sup****ters. =A0This would also make other charges
> > >about him seem suspect, including his concealment about ties to Bill
> > >Ayers and others of some infamy. =A0Such a clever yet distasteful
tact=
ic
> > >would seem to be a Machiavelli- and Saul-Alinsky-style way to
> > >manipulate public opinion. =A0But while this tactic may energize his
> > >sup****ters, it would convince those who believe him to be a
> > >manipulator that he's not only just that, but a real pro at it.
=A0Thi=
s
> > >would indeed be the basest reason of all, and would have
repercussions
> > >about his trustworthiness (both here and abroad), which Americans
> > >know, is a characteristic sorely lacking in its leaders.
>
> > > =A0 =A0B. His motion to dismiss the Berg case for lack of standing
co=
uld
> > >be viewed as contemptuous of the Constitution. =A0Are we to expect
yet
> > >another White House that hides behind lawyers, and expects Americans
> > >to swallow half-truths on a just-trust-me basis?
>
> > > =A0 =A0C. This issue poses the potential for a constitutional crisis
> > >unlike anything this country has seen. =A0Disclosure at this stage,
> > >however, could even result in criminal sanctions. =A0Thus, he has
moti=
ve
> > >not to disclose if he were ineligible.
>
> > >The question not being asked by the holders of power, who dismiss
this
> > >as a rightwing conspiracy, is: what's the downside of disclosing?
> > >This is a legitimate issue of inquiry because Barack Obama has turned
> > >it into one. =A0The growing number of people who demand an answer in
> > >conformance with the Constitution are doing their work; the people's
> > >watchdogs aren't.
>
> >
>http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/why_the_barack_obama_birth_cer.=
...
>
> > You have already been given an answer. =A0President Elect Obama
doesn't=
need to
> > show you ****. =A0
>
> > However his bc was published on the Internet in Jun of 2007. =A0
>
> > Looking at the Do***ent:
>
> > I like where the certificate states the place of birth as
>
> > CITY, TOWN OR LOCATION OF BIRTH =A0-
>
> > read more =BB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -...
>
> Get one thing straight for your own self interest! THERE ARE TENS OF
> MILLIONS OF GUN OWNERS IN USA ONLY WAITING TO USE THEM ON ANYBODY WHO
> THREATENS THE US CONSTITUTION - so better use all your brain cells in
> your own self interest to resolve this matter now and not later. Run
> to Obama and beg him to release all birth records or things will not
> get any better. You are playing with fire.
So you're suggesting an armed revolution will take place if SCOTUS
refuses to hear the case?
You may just be the kookiest kook on Usenet.
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